EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW WITH MARY ROBINSON

Mike: Your country’s history is deeply rooted in the struggle for land rights. Speaking for myself, I do what I do now as Director of the International Land Coalition out of my experience growing up in a small village in my country, Botswana. What do land rights mean to you personally, and how do they relate to your broader work for social justice?

Mary: You're right that coming from Ireland, and actually coming in particular from the west of Ireland –  and from a small town in the west of Ireland – land rights are extraordinarily important. We learned about the Land League, we learned about John Stuart Parnell and various other wonderful heroes of Irish history. But also, I learned from my grandfather, who was a lawyer. He was taking cases for the tenant against the landlord. He had to retire because of illness, and he didn't know how to speak to a child, so he treated me as an adult. I loved that – at the age of 10, 11, 12 – to be treated as an adult and talked to about justice. It had a big impression on me. So you've probably seen plays like The Field, and great fights have taken place over land, as elsewhere, but land rights are very important [in the Irish context], yes.

Mike: We see in your approach to climate justice that you work through creating platforms that amplify the voices of those people who live and work on the front lines. At ILC, we too, are working to shift power to those living on and from the land. Could you share with us how your experience in influential spaces around the world has shaped your approach to shifting power on deep-rooted inequalities such as land rights?

Mary: Let me begin by taking the cue from getting the voice to the table. Because, frankly, people don't give you power, you have to take it. And you have to be there at the table to do that. 

One example that illustrates this is, I had been very shocked at my first conference on climate, which was only Copenhagen. Unlike some people, I have not been aware of the climate and nature crisis for very long in my life. But when I became aware, I saw it through the lens of justice – I always talk about climate justice. When I went to Copenhagen, I was shocked that it was so male, technical, scientific,  and not at all about human rights or gender equality.

The following year, with a number of other women leaders, we formed a network of women leaders on gender and climate, which was women ambassadors or ministers from various countries and heads of UN agencies. And we rather quickly tried to get a reform focusing on gender. We realized one of the things that these women could do,  because they were the heads of delegations – they were ministers coming to the COP and they decided who would be in their delegation – was to have grassroots women and Indigenous women and young women in as many delegations as possible. And I saw the difference it made. I saw it in Doha. I saw it in a whole series of COPs.

That voice of authority – because you know what you're talking about – you're talking about how your land is affected, your water is affected, your community is affected, and you have chapter and verse. I heard so many authentic voices being so strong on these issues. And I saw the delegates, many of whom were men, literally put down their pen or their pencil and listen – and listen with a lot of interest. Because they [had been] more concerned about the words in the text. And they [had] fought like mad for this textual approach, and very often it had little bearing on the actual reality they should have been dealing with. It was a bit abstract, to say the least.

And here was this voice of authority. That's why, since then, I've been very keen to get young voices. I've given up panels. I've given up actually speaking to media when I get the access, and I say, "Well, actually, I'd like this young person to step in for me from time to time." I think anything like that lets people have the access. And they're the ones that should [have it], because they have the authority, they have the legitimacy. They're the voice.

Mike: Along the same lines, you famously refer to climate change as a man-made problem with a feminist solution – clearly connecting women's rights with climate justice. How would you see women's land rights fitting into that?

Mary: Well, of course, it's the absence of women's land rights that we have to start with. In so many countries, women work as farmers, produce the food, but don't own the land and therefore don't have the kind of power to change things or do things better that they would often like to do. And with climate shocks, [this lack of rights] can make things very difficult.  So there is a huge gender dimension to land rights for that reason, right across the board.

I’’m also interested in the way women lead – coming out of the women's movement – and more men are leading like this now. And when I say the way of leading – it's less hierarchical, it's more respectful of everybody's viewpoint – more sharing, more caring, problem-solving, and actually thinking that people are differently affected. We've got to take care to make sure that everybody's included in that way. 

We need that kind of problem-solving in our world. We're actually very short of it, because there's a dominance at the highest level of male leadership, some of which is very autocratic, some of which is very short-term, populist. And now we see a kind of abuse of power by a certain gentleman, if he's a gentleman at all.

Mike: To quote you again, Mary, at Project Dandelion, your work is elevating women-led climate solutions.  I've heard you talk about leading from the heart, not just leading from statistics. 

In our network, many of the grassroots women in the International Land Coalition place themselves at great risk in defending the land and territorial rights of their families and of their communities. If you had the chance to talk to them, what advice would you give these women land defenders? What advice would you give them for sharing their stories in powerful and effective ways?

Mary: Well, first of all, I do have some real sense of the genuine risks and the terrible toll.

I think I heard a figure yesterday in one of our meetings – that for 2023 those protecting their land and water – and men or women, that doesn't matter – environmental rights defenders – 196 were killed last year. I mean, this is really shocking. And that's killed. You also have families harassed, you have people imprisoned, maybe their livelihoods taken away from them  – all kinds of problems.

It is brave to put yourself forward. I think it's necessary to. I honour the courage because it takes courage and needs courage. It does make a difference sometimes if somebody does stand up and defend their rights and take a case, or start a protest, or form a group – whatever the activity may be. That takes courage, but it can actually change things because it has disrupted the unfair status quo.